From another conversation with a different agnostic/atheist…
from our catechism, “My Catholic Faith”
How do we know by our reason that God exists?
-We know by our reason that God exists, because of:
1. The existence of the world.
2. The order and harmony of the whole universe.
3. The testimony of our conscience.
How does the existence of the world prove the existence of God?
-The existence of the world proves the existence of God, because it could not have come into existence by itself.
1. Everything in the world had a beginning. Men, animals, plants, the earth, planets and stars – all had a beginning. They could not have come into existence by themselves. They must have been made by Someone Who had no beginning. Planets and men could no more have made themselves than a watch can make itself.
The astronomer Kircher had a friend who denied the existence of God. During a visit one day, this friend saw a globe in the study of the astronomer. “This is an interesting globe,” said he;” Who made it?” “Why,” replied Kircher, “it just made itself!” The friend had a hearty laugh at the idea. Kircher asserted, “It would be much easier for a little globe like that to make itself than for the immense globe of the earth to create itself.”
2. When we see footprints on the sand, we conclude that someone has passed that way. The universe is filled with the footprints of a Supreme Creator. Every single existing thing or being gives clear testimony of Him.
How do the order and harmony of the universe prove the existence of God?
-They lead us to infer the existence of a Supreme Architect and Preserver of surpassing skill.
1. The heavenly bodies go along their appointed courses age after age. The seasons succeed one another year by year. There is splendor, beauty, arrangement, and order everywhere. The whole universe is governed and preserved by immutable law. [How could it be this orderly and not so chaotic if something like the 'big bang' had occurred?]
If you plant an orange seed, you are certain an apple will not spring from it. Every morning you are sure the sun, when it rises, will appear in the east. At night you can go peacefully to sleep, that after your rest the day will come again.
2. To say that this universal order is the result of accident, or that the planets direct their own courses, is as foolish as to say that an automobile goes sensibly around the city streets running itself.
“The heavens show forth the glory of God, and the firmament declareth the work of His hands” (Ps. 18:2). God is the Intelligent Cause.
3. Long ago the pagan Cicero said: “When we contemplate the heavens, we arrive at the conviction that they are all guided by a Being of surpassing skill.”
And Cicero also says, “There is no nation to be found so savage as to be ignorant of the existence of God.” [it is hard to say which was more savage, though - savages who sacrificed thousands to their gods, not to be confused with the one God, or savages who sacrificed millions to their gods of racial and other forms of purity in the last century] The great astronomer Newton often uncovered and bowed his head when God’s Name was uttered.
How does the testimony of our conscience prove the existence of God?
-By our conscience we can distinguish right from wrong.
1. Our conscience approves the right and condemns the wrong. Thus within ourselves there is a recognition of a Supreme Lawgiver to Whom we are responsible, Who will reward the good we do, and punish the evil.
“Only the fool says in his heart: There is no God” (Psalm 13:1)
2. Those who persist in denying the existence of God in spite of external and internal testimony are atheists who are eaten up by pride, or live vicious lives, or both. Of them Our Lord said:
“Seeing they do not see and hearing they do not hear, neither do they understand . . . For the heart of this people has been hardened, and with their ears they have been hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed; Lest at any time they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their mind, And be converted, and I heal them” (Matthew 13:13-15).
The other proofs we have are from supernatural revelation, which you are not interested in. It was uncanny how much the Catechism of Modernism echoed what you said yesterday (a different catechism from the one that has the proofs I quoted):
The Religious Philosophy of the Modernists
Q. What do the modernists use as the foundation for their philosophy?
A. Modernists place the foundation of religious philosophy in that doctrine which is usually called Agnosticism.
Q. Give the teaching of Agnosticism?
A. According to this teaching, human reason is confined entirely within the field of phenomena, that is to say, to things that are perceptible to the senses, and in the manner in which they are perceptible: it has no right and no power to transgress these limits. Hence it is incapable of lifting itself up to God, and of recognizing His existence, even by visible things.
Q. What conclusions do Modernists draw from this doctrine?
A. From this it is inferred that God can never be the direct object of science, and that, as regards history, He must not be considered as an historical subject.
…
Q. What definition of the Vatican Council (in the 1800s) may be cited against the Modernists?
A. The Vatican Council has defined: If any one says that the one true God, Our Creator and Lord, can not be known with certainty by the natural light of human reason by means of the things that are made, let him be anathema; and also: If any one says that it is not possible or not expedient that man be taught, through the medium of divine revelation, about God and the worship to be paid Him, let him be anathema; and finally: If any one says that divine revelation can not be made credible by external signs, and that therefore men should be drawn to the faith only by their personal internal experience or by private inspiration, let him be anathema.
And he said:
“1) The existence of the world proves the existence of the world not god
2) Order and harmony of the universe proves science exists, not a god.
3) Emotions are an extension of out conscience, I dont want to die ergo I wont kill you for that same reason.
A fool in his heart…. I’m not talking about the heart or of feeling, I’m talking about the mind.
It is good to know however that i live a vicious life, as I am a very helpful person. So how is it that i have the ability to help others w/o the assistance of a god. How is it that i dont kill people and hurt others just for fun. If i dont follow god but have good morals towards others what makes this possible? Perhaps I operate on another system.”
So I said:
Science exists to study the order and harmony. They didn’t make it.
He said:
Oh, by the way, If EVERYTHING had a beginning, man, animals, plants etc. how is it possible that god did not. Again I ask HOW is it possible, not that it MUST be necessary for existance.
I said:
Our minds can only comprehend things with beginnings. That’s all we know. It could be why we can’t come up with another plausible theory of the beginning of the world besides God – the big bang theory assumes some matter already existed, plus spontaneous generation which has been disproven.
God by definition is greater than we are, so part of that is that He had no beginning. He was always there, period.
I know you probably don’t like this argument…but our puny little minds can only understand so much. (mine anyway, ha ha) So it is hard for us to take that we can’t and don’t understand everything, especially something like Someone Who had no beginning.
and you not going around killing everybody has to do with the conscience thing I typed about earlier
You’ve probably heard all the proofs/arguments I typed today before. As I said, I think that’s all we have here at home. I’m sure a text of the Summa is easy to find though.
here is a small part of it http://www.ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/FP/FP044.html
He said:
let me ask you this. I god wont give us the ability to understand him, can he blame us for not following him, if he fails to give proof to his existance and then expects me to follow then the error is on him for my doubt, not me. If he wants me to follow he needs to give me every reason and not expect me to follow faith. again his error not mine.
I said:
ok…just because we’re stupid doesn’t mean we can’t accept God’s existence, and in other ways through faith. God made the beautiful sunsets, the intricate flowers and the brilliant complexity of the human body – the more I learn about these things, the more I see God’s existence, so it really depends on your attitude, not on God. You have already closed your mind to Him. Explain – and don’t say “science” even if that is your god, science only studies it doesn’t create it – how and why the human body is made to do everything it can to keep living, to fight that which would kill it, to keep surviving…if it’s all random and has no purpose other than to disentegrate once it does finally die.
He said:
good question, but not the point. Why does the body fight to live, who knows, but better yet what does that have to do with a God. Because you think he made us that way? Great! But first I want proof that he made us. Not random sighting of beauty and sunsets. Not faith because we lack the ability to know everything RIGHT NOW. Not that we must come to the understanding that our minds are “puny” just so we can have our belifes despite that they dont follow to the logical conclusion that we’ve concluded prior to any evidence. None of that matters. Prove God. If you cant then I have no use for your belief system. Like I said, I already strive to live a good life with out his help or from my fearing him. I dont need a god to be a good person. But if a God exists, prove it.
I reminded him to read that excerpt from the Summa Theologica that I linked to and the conversation ended soon after that with nap time on my end and more work on his end. I know my side wasn’t that intellectually sophisticated, so I am hoping the Summa will help him and other readers this applies to.